“We cannot allow the world to sink into a new Cold War” Exclusive interview with Joko Widodo, president of Indonesia.

Anupam Nath/AP

Sebastien Falletti, in Bali

LE FIGARO. - The leaders of the world's major powers are meeting in Bali on 15 November 2022 against a tense geopolitical backdrop. As President of the G20, how do you see this meeting?

Joko WIDODO. - The situation is obviously very difficult and full of challenges. The G20 brings together major powers defending their interests, and now we have to add the energy crisis, the financial problems caused by the pandemic, and the rising cost of living. We need to find practical ways of working together to support the global economy. Then there's the war in Ukraine, which is dividing the world even further.

Do you fear that the world is on the verge of a new long-term division?

We cannot allow the world to sink into a new Cold War. In July, I went to Kiev to meet President Zelensky, with whom I spoke for over an hour and a half. Then I went to Moscow, where I met Vladimir Putin for over two hours. My mission is humanitarian, for peace. My aim is to prevent a global food crisis. Between Russia and Ukraine, there are more than 207 million tonnes of grain available. Indonesia, for example, needs to import 1.3 million tonnes of rice. I hope they can reach an agreement, because the price of food and energy is rising all the time because of this war.

What can the G20 realistically achieve in this context?

The crisis before us is multidimensional, from energy to food. The fate of millions of people around the world is at stake. The G20 must deliver concrete results. Indonesia will do everything in its power to establish a forum for dialogue that will enable us to find common solutions to the food and energy crises, but also to the financing of the pandemic. Yes, it's difficult, but we are determined to move forward.

Was Vladimir Putin welcome in Bali?

Russia is a member of the G20 because of the size of its GDP, and all the leaders of the group are welcome in Bali. I spoke to him on the phone a few days ago, and he told me he would come "if the conditions are satisfactory"... (Since the interview, the Kremlin has announced that the Russian President will not be going to Bali, editor's note).

But would his presence have increased tensions at the summit?

I recognise that the situation is very complicated. The summit will be subject to many harsh dynamics. We didn't expect the war to go on for so long. But as President, Indonesia will not give up. We will work hard to bridge differences and find solutions. The wisdom and sense of responsibility of the G20 leaders are needed now more than ever.

The major powers must respect differences of opinion and work with developing countries.

The Western democracies and Russia or China are at loggerheads, but many countries in the South don't want to choose. As the leader of a non-aligned country, do you believe that a third way is still possible?

Indonesia's foreign policy is based on independence. We must contribute to peace as stipulated in our Constitution. The major powers must respect differences of opinion and work with developing countries. This is in our common interest. Emerging countries need technology and investment and, ultimately, this is also in the interests of developed countries.

The rivalry between the United States and China is growing in Asia. Will Joe Biden and Xi Jinping have their first meeting on the sidelines of the G20?

Yes, Presidents Xi and Biden will meet in Bali and will be able to offer solutions to the world. This is very important. If there is good communication between the major powers, tensions can ease and dialogue can begin. All the leaders must work together to find solutions to this multidimensional crisis.

Do you fear a confrontation between the United States and China?

Competition must be managed responsibly. Indonesia wants to play the role of peacemaker. Global recovery can only happen if all leaders work together.

If this summit fails, will it signal the end of globalisation?

The G20 will be a test of whether multilateral cooperation can still work in a difficult situation. To do that, we need tangible results.

Indonesia is showing resilience in a difficult global economic context. Is South-East Asia the new frontier of growth?

We recorded growth of over 5% in the first three quarters in Indonesia. And we are managing to keep inflation under control. We have increased oil production. If you compare us with other countries, we're doing well. South-East Asia is going to grow very fast if it can maintain stability and peace. But we need more trade with other regions of the world, including Europe. We are open to all investors without discrimination, on the principle of mutual benefit.

Jakarta has signed a contract to buy French Rafale fighter jets. What is the significance of this agreement?

It's about strengthening our defence system. Indonesia has good relations with France and wants to extend cooperation to trade and investment. French investment is increasing significantly, particularly in renewable energy, digital technology and transport. I hope they will continue to grow, particularly in our new capital Nusantara (under construction on the island of Borneo, editor's note).

Why did you decide to give the country a new capital in the middle of the jungle?

It 's not in the jungle, or primary forest, but on a eucalyptus plantation. We're going to plant numerous species of trees and help rehabilitate the equatorial forest to develop the green economy in this capital. Indonesia has 17,000 islands. 57% of our population is concentrated in Java, which accounts for 58% of our wealth. We want development based on equity throughout the country, not just in Java. That's why we're building this new capital in Kalimantan . Nusantara will be the legacy of all Indonesians, finally fulfilling the idea of our first president Sukarno.

Democracy must bring prosperity, not just freedom of expression.

Could you give in to the temptation of a third term in 2024, despite the constitutional rules?

I've already said it four times. No, no, no and no. I think that's clear enough. I will fully respect the Indonesian Constitution, which does not allow it. And I would add that I have no intention of becoming Vice-President (laughs).

Today, democracy is in crisis in the West, and challenged by authoritarian regimes. As President of one of the world's largest democracies, do you believe that this system has a future?

Indonesia is a vibrant democracy. This system is still relevant. We've already had five presidential elections, and they were held safely and peacefully. Democracy must be based on equality, respecting differences while promoting unity. But it must also bring prosperity, and not just freedom of expression.

You started your career as a furniture salesman in Solo. Is it more difficult to negotiate with the world's great leaders?

Yes, I used to come to Paris every year to the Maison&Objets show near Roissy. It's the best in Europe! And you know that my nickname 'Jokowi' was given to me by a French associate. But, from experience, I can tell you that it's easier to negotiate with businessmen than with political leaders.

Copyright @lefigaro

Here is the original article: https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/joko-widodo-le-monde-ne-doit-pas-sombrer-dans-une-nouvelle-guerre-froide-20221111